Coaching is Connection First— Why Presence Outperforms Advice

All right. Welcome back to the 90th percentile podcast. I’m Brianne Okoren, and today we’re talking about something that sounds simple, but it’s actually difficult, and that is presence in coaching.

00:15.99
BreAnne Okoren
At Zanger Folkman, we work with thousands of leaders through our extraordinary leader assessments and strengths-based development work. But today we’re stepping back from tools and frameworks and talking about something more foundational to coaching.

00:31.40
BreAnne Okoren
We’re joined today by leadership expert and guru Jack Sanger, my co-host and special guest, Michelle Fabian. Michelle recently wrote a powerful article for coaches and facilitators about why great coaching begins long before a goal is defined. And it begins with presence and rapport.

00:51.03
BreAnne Okoren
And Michelle is our wonderful head of a facilitation here at Sanger Folkman. She’s been with us for years and we really appreciate all the expertise that she brings to this topic. So welcome to the podcast, Michelle.

01:03.82
Michelle
Thank you, Bree. Thank you, Jack. I’m glad to be here with the two of you today.

01:08.80
jackzenger
I want to begin by explaining a little bit of the backstory behind this podcast. ah Michelle has a long reputation of being a wonderful facilitator and deliverer ah of training, but she doesn’t didn’t fancy herself as a writer.

01:27.86
jackzenger
And so when I approached her and kind of asked her to kind of think about

01:28.14
BreAnne Okoren
Mm-hmm.

01:32.81
jackzenger
writing, she was a little bit reluctant and still may have some bruises on her arms where I twisted them a bit. The reason why I’d asked her to write this article was that she was doing the coaching for one of our major clients.

01:50.69
jackzenger
And this was coaching of about the 50 top people in the organization.

01:51.31
Michelle
Okay.

01:56.12
jackzenger
Now, usually coaches connect with some people and they don’t always connect with everyone. But in her case, she seemed to be batting a thousand. And not only batting a thousand, but but she was hitting home runs with all these people.

02:10.58
jackzenger
And so I was convinced that she was doing something different or beyond what we normally see even good really good coaches So so i coerced her into writing this article.

02:28.59
jackzenger
And when she produced it, I was blown away too. i thought it had very practical, very actionable ideas. um She, you know, she focused on things that we often overlook and made, they they made them essential again.

02:48.25
jackzenger
So with that kind of backstory, let me, Toss it over to to her.

02:55.22
Michelle
Thanks, Jack. And you’re right, you coerced me, but it’s been good. It’s been good. I think, in fact, I said to you, I talk, I don’t write. And you said you can do it. So thank you for the encouragement. I appreciate that. So yeah, i what led me to emphasize the things in in that article I wrote were that in coaching, especially in these corporate environments that you described that we’re working with our group right now, We often jump straight to goals. That’s what we’re focused on, performance gaps, development plans, action steps, all the things that a good corporate environment wants.

03:27.67
Michelle
But if I don’t start a conversation with trust and with getting people and getting to know them personally, the conversations a lot of times will stick to those types of conversations. And so presence and rapport aren’t just a warm up activity for me to kind of check a box, but they are what helps the person feel seen and heard, which helps me then connect with them on how they might move forward with insights through these coaching conversations that we have. And it’s hard to be vulnerable sometimes and to open up about what may or may not be working for someone. And so it’s a great way to get the conversation started.

04:07.87
jackzenger
And this very strongly with our research. When we analyzed leaders in the top 10% of their organization, the 90th percentile, we found that one of the differentiators wasn’t technical expertise.

04:16.43
Michelle
Mm-hmm.

04:24.70
jackzenger
It was their ability to build trust. And trust doesn’t come completely. from just giving nice and great advice. It comes from demonstrating concern, concern for the whole individual, listening deeply, showing consistency.

04:44.28
BreAnne Okoren
I love how you talk about it so casually, but it it is hard um to maybe get into that mindset as you’re going into these these conversations. um And it’s such an important point. we We think coaching effectiveness comes from asking the perfect question, like, here are my list of questions and I’m going to check them off one by one.

05:05.59
BreAnne Okoren
But without trust, Even the best question that you formulated, it can fall flat.

05:12.19
jackzenger
Mm-hmm.

05:13.62
BreAnne Okoren
So Michelle, you talk about knowing the person, not just the problem. And that really stuck with me. What does that look like in practice for both kind of internal and external coaches?

05:27.42
Michelle
Sure, sure. That’s a great question. And to separate those because there can be similarities and differences. It means being curious about the whole human being, the whole person, and that it’s more than just their professional life, but their personal life also impacts these coaching conversations.

05:43.69
Michelle
So early on, I’ll ask questions of them like, what really energizes you?

05:43.76
BreAnne Okoren
Mm-hmm.

05:48.62
Michelle
What feels really heavy right now? what’s been occupying your thinking. And you can hear by those questions that sometimes you don’t just hear about the work challenges that are occurring, and that also helps build that trust. So those questions, they get at someone’s motivation, at their confidence, at the feelings of uncertainty that they may be having, and what motivates them. That energizing question is really all about what what gets them out of bed every day. So over time,

06:17.14
Michelle
I can start to see that patterns emerge through these conversations and I can find threads that tell a richer story than just whatever challenge that they’re bringing to me in that moment.

06:31.54
jackzenger
And that pattern recognition is critical in our 360 degree feedback assessments. Leaders reveal repeated themes across different raters.

06:43.89
jackzenger
And these patterns tell a much richer story than just a single performance issue or or or number. um You’re listening ah across time, not just across one conversation.

06:51.43
Michelle
Mm-hmm.

06:58.61
BreAnne Okoren
Oh, I love that. it’s so important. I, um, this made me as you were talking about that, Jack, think about healthcare. Cause I was in an appointment the other day and because I had access to my chart, I like was able to pull up all the history of my blood tests and like, well, you can see the pattern. And it’s true. Like all of those conversations um are important, not just the single by itself. So you say, Michelle, that presence isn’t passive. It, um,

07:30.96
BreAnne Okoren
Michelle, you say presence isn’t passive, it is active practice. And I love that phrasing. So um can you expand a little bit more on that of what you mean and how to achieve that activeness?

07:45.69
Michelle
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. As coaches, right, we have stuff going on too, right? We have our own things that are always happening for us.

07:51.35
jackzenger
Thank you.

07:53.28
Michelle
And so for me, presence means being able to intentionally set aside anything that might be distracting me, any assumptions I might have coming into a conversation, my desire to maybe help fix things that are happening for this person or offer advice.

08:08.61
BreAnne Okoren
Mm-hmm.

08:10.42
Michelle
It’s really about arriving at these conversations with no scripting, no agenda, and just start asking those questions that allow the person to show up with what’s ever most present for them in their mind. And often the most meaningful breakthroughs happen when I can slow the pace for the two of us and just help them sit in the silence of pondering a question.

08:37.21
jackzenger
Yes, and silence is uncomfortable for many cultures. Yeah.

08:42.42
Michelle
Me included. Me included. It can be. Yes, it can be. And it creates the the space for thinking. And that thinking creates some ownership for them. And a lot of times that silence leads to them saying something to the effect of, oh, that’s a really good question, Michelle. And that’s when I know that that silence has really made an impact.

09:07.58
BreAnne Okoren
And to remember that silence is productive. Like we think, oh, I’m wasting someone’s time because I’m not you know thinking of the answer really fast and and retraining ourselves to accept accept that silence is a good thing. So Jack, our research on feedback that Zanger-Bochman has done shows something similar, doesn’t it? That people don’t need more input. They need the space to process.

09:34.65
jackzenger
Absolutely. Our feedback studies show that leaders grow most when they feel some ownership of the insight that that we’re discussing.

09:45.62
jackzenger
If I tell you what’s wrong, you may comply, but if you articulate it for yourself, then you change. And that presence that Michelle talks about allows people to hear themselves think.

10:00.34
BreAnne Okoren
So Michelle, you also mentioned in the article that listening, we need to listen for what is not said. What should coaches be attuned to?

10:13.17
Michelle
Sure. that What a wonderful question. And we have two things to consider, right? Phone only or video. And we can pick up on things in both of those scenarios. And so you can hear a shift in a tone of voice sometimes, a slight hesitation, a pause, and it almost feels like an energy change.

10:32.48
Michelle
And again, you can hear that through the phone many times, but a lot of times you get to have the video opportunity as well. And so when someone either looks away or head goes down or when they say it’s fine, but I can hear their voice change from what it normally is, that’s often where the real work is happening and where that internal dialogue is starting to happen.

10:46.03
jackzenger
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

10:54.91
Michelle
And so instead of moving on, which could be easy to do, to go to that next question, like you talked about Brie, right? Just a checklist of questions. Instead, in that moment, my role of being present is to

11:01.88
BreAnne Okoren
Yeah.

11:06.01
Michelle
notice, say to them, I noticed you just paused there, or I noticed the way you said it’s just fine. What’s underneath that really? And many times what pops out when you can focus in on that is something they’re fearful of, something they’re embarrassed by, something that is really getting them to again, pause for a moment and think. And that’s a lot of times where that self-doubt for an individual lives.

11:30.81
BreAnne Okoren
yeah and I think it takes a lot of commitment from the coach.

11:36.50
Michelle
Yeah.

11:36.66
BreAnne Okoren
to to give that type of focus and energy to another person. What a gift to do that because um it’s just it’s taking that time out to really dig a little bit deeper. So let’s talk about action. One misconception about coaching is that if you’re not solving everything in one session, then you’re not being effective. You didn’t get through the checklist, but your article suggests progress is often one small step at a time.

12:05.56
Michelle
yeah Absolutely, Bree. Coaching isn’t about fixing a person or fixing the problem. It’s about forward momentum or movement. And so what can you do next? And so questions that I’ll ask are what’s within your control right now?

12:21.98
Michelle
What feels like the most useful first step, right? Next step may not be all of them, but just one thing that this person can start with. What would you like to try first, knowing that it may be effective? It may not.

12:35.74
Michelle
any of the answers to those questions really help people start to own what they want to do and build some agency into, i can do this.

12:48.47
jackzenger
And that aligns beautifully with our strengths-based development philosophy. When leaders focus on leveraging a strength in a new way, even in small increments, we see disproportionate gains in effectiveness.

12:58.46
BreAnne Okoren
Oh, Jack, we lost you.

13:02.72
BreAnne Okoren
Oh, no. Jack.

13:03.86
Michelle
He’s frozen. he’s frozen

13:05.37
jackzenger
We often say it’s not about eliminating every weakness.

13:05.92
BreAnne Okoren
He’s frozen. We’ll see if it comes back in a second.

13:09.23
jackzenger
It’s about amplifying things that truly work.

13:11.77
BreAnne Okoren
a No, you you came back. Do I still have your thing? Jack, are you there?

13:19.25
jackzenger
I am here.

13:19.89
Michelle
Yeah, he’s back.

13:21.14
BreAnne Okoren
Okay. Phew. I thought I might have lost your recording track. no

13:24.79
jackzenger
You bet.

13:24.86
BreAnne Okoren
Okay. Can you start over with that? line That aligns beautifully.

13:28.41
jackzenger
you bad That aligns beautifully with our strength-based development philosophy. When leaders focus on leveraging a strength in a new way, even in a small incremental way, we see disproportionate gains in their effectiveness.

13:46.81
jackzenger
We often say it’s not about eliminating every weakness, it’s about amplifying things that truly work.

13:54.84
BreAnne Okoren
And that reduces overwhelm, right? i Michelle, just as you were saying, like, we’re not going to these conversations like, okay, we’re here to talk about what’s wrong, what if what you did, what you could be better, you know? i i love that even the phrasing of the question of like, what feels heavy?

14:11.77
BreAnne Okoren
Like, how can we make it reduce that overwhelm for you?

14:14.66
Michelle
Mm hmm. Yes. Yes. When when we think about in that moment, they may have a lot of things happening. And so when clients can see progress and even one thing this first time, it builds that momentum and their belief in themselves and the belief in the coaching that it works, that small progress ultimately leads to confidence in themselves and in their ability to work through things.

14:42.22
BreAnne Okoren
Michelle, one of my favorite lines in the article, and I know that ah I’ve said that up about a lot of lines, but this one probably is, is that you do not need to have the answers.

14:47.95
jackzenger
Mm-hmm.

14:54.90
BreAnne Okoren
that That’s liberating as a coach, right? That you’re you are not supposed to be like the person that’s just the oracle telling them everything, but also hard for high achieving leaders who step into coaching roles, right?

15:11.10
BreAnne Okoren
They feel like they need to.

15:13.02
Michelle
It is hard. we We kind of grow up that way of like become an expert and then share that with everybody. And in this case, what we’re saying for coaching is that whether you’re a senior leader, a coach, a facilitator who’s used to being an expert, we don’t need to be an expert. It’s about that partnership.

15:30.46
Michelle
It’s about that relationship that we build with one another. So if I find myself tempted, because I do, even years down the path, I’m tempted to, I could offer something right now, a piece of advice. Instead, I’ll take a moment and I’ll shift that into a question of what options do you see What feels aligned for you and your strengths and what you’re working on right now? And what would success look like to you? And sometimes we’re having that conversation at success in the next 30 days before we meet again, or what does the entire year look like? And maybe it’s an and, it’s both. We break it down and we talk about the bigger picture longer. And that reinforces ownership that this is theirs. They get to decide how to move forward.

16:13.13
jackzenger
And our research consistently shows that leaders who develop other people effectively are not the ones who provide all the answers. They’re the ones who create thinking by asking thoughtful questions.

16:25.20
Michelle
Thank you.

16:27.76
jackzenger
In fact, when we look at the highest rated managers on that one consistent behavior, it is helping other people see their own capability, like being a good writer of an article about coaching.

16:41.85
BreAnne Okoren
yeah Exactly. so in other words, Jack, coaching isn’t about being impressive. People aren’t supposed to walk away being like, oh my gosh, that that person’s just so amazing.

16:55.47
BreAnne Okoren
It’s about, wow, that person, my coach was with me. i felt heard. I felt understood. i felt like I could open up. like It’s about being present, like you said.

17:06.90
jackzenger
Yeah, the best coaches don’t impress people with their answers.

17:10.59
Michelle
Mm-hmm.

17:11.03
jackzenger
They change lives by their attention to the whole individual. And then when that person feels fully heard, they don’t need direction. They find their own way.

17:23.29
BreAnne Okoren
So Michelle and Jack, if I had to summarize this conversation in one sentence for coaches and facilitators listening, if you had, sorry, I’m to say that again. If you had to summarize this conversation in one sentence for coaches and facilitators who are listening to this podcast, what would it be?

17:42.74
Michelle
I would say coaching is connection first. And when people feel seen and heard, clarity will follow.

17:51.61
jackzenger
And I would add it is the genuine interest in the other person as a whole, not as a current challenge or problem that needs to get fixed.

18:04.22
jackzenger
This presence strengthens trust and it improves feedback quality and it increases long term development impact.

18:15.69
BreAnne Okoren
I love that. It brings us back to what we see in our data again and again. Leaders in the 90th percentile aren’t just skilled. They’re trusted. They build connection.

18:26.52
BreAnne Okoren
They develop others. Michelle, thank you for bringing us back to the human side of coaching.’

Michelle
You’re welcome. And thank you for having me today. It’s been a pleasure.

18:36.79
BreAnne Okoren
And to our listeners, whether you’re a coach, facilitator, hr leader, or manager, remember, you don’t need better scripts. You need deeper presence. And we’ll see you next time on 90th percentile podcast.