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Most leaders believe they’re good listeners. They put down their phone, make eye contact, avoid interrupting, and nod at the appropriate moments. But those familiar listening behaviors don’t necessarily mean the person across from you actually feels heard.
In this episode of 90th Percentile Leadership: Insights. Backed by Data., BreAnne Okoren and Joe Folkman are joined by Dr. Kurt Sandholtz, professor at BYU’s Marriott School of Business, to explore what separates genuine listening from simply looking like you’re listening.
Joe shares Zenger Folkman research showing a surprising trend: listening effectiveness actually declines as leaders move higher in an organization. Individual contributors ranked at the 59th percentile in listening effectiveness, while top managers fell to the 39th percentile. magic-episode-01
The conversation challenges the traditional idea that great listeners should behave like “sponges,” quietly absorbing information. Instead, great listeners behave more like trampolines—asking thoughtful questions, responding to ideas, challenging assumptions, and helping the other person think more deeply. magic-episode-01
Kurt also introduces the concept of conversational uptake: demonstrating that you are genuinely engaged by accurately referring back to what someone has said, asking specific follow-up questions, and showing appreciation for their contribution. magic-episode-01
The bigger lesson? Listening isn’t measured by how quiet you are during the conversation. It’s demonstrated by what you do with what you’ve heard.
Think you’re a good listener? Find out.
Take Zenger Folkman’s free Listening Self-Assessment to evaluate your preference for talking versus listening and identify opportunities to become a more effective listener.
Take the Free Listening Self-Assessment → Zenger Folkman
I found Zenger Folkman’s existing listening webinar page, which includes the Listening Self-Assessment. If you have a new standalone assessment URL created specifically for this episode, I’d use that instead.
1. Great listening is active, not passive.
The best listeners aren’t “sponges” who simply absorb what someone says. They act more like trampolines—asking questions, responding to ideas, and creating a two-way exchange that helps the speaker think more deeply. magic-episode-01
2. Listening gets harder as leaders move up.
In Zenger Folkman data from 4,213 leaders, listening effectiveness declined at each successive organizational level—from the 59th percentile for individual contributors to just the 39th percentile for top managers. Greater responsibility, distraction, expertise, and what Kurt calls the “gift of certainty” can make senior leaders less inclined to fully process opposing perspectives. magic-episode-01 magic-episode-01
3. Curiosity is especially important when you disagree.
Listening doesn’t require agreement. Strong leaders can separate the person from the issue, accurately understand another person’s perspective, and respectfully explain why they see the situation differently. Employees don’t expect leaders to agree with everything—but they do want to know their perspective was genuinely considered. magic-episode-01
4. Asking for feedback isn’t enough—you have to do something with it.
Repeatedly asking employees for input without demonstrating any response can undermine credibility. Joe’s research also shows that leaders who make a habit of asking for feedback improve year after year, making listening and humility important components of leadership development. magic-episode-01 magic-episode-01
5. The strongest evidence of listening often happens after the conversation.
Follow-up is one of the clearest ways to demonstrate that someone was heard. Changing a decision, adjusting a behavior, acting on an idea—or even sending a short message summarizing what you heard—turns listening from a conversational technique into visible action.
BreAnne Okoren:
Welcome to 90th Percentile Leadership: Insights. Backed by Data. I’m BreAnne Okoren, and I’m here with Joe Folkman, my co-host.
Today, we’re talking about something nearly every leader believes they do reasonably well: listening.
Most of us know the rules by now. Put down your phone. Make eye contact. Don’t interrupt. Nod occasionally. Maybe repeat back what you’ve heard.
But here’s the problem: You can do every one of those things, and the person sitting across from you can still walk away thinking, They didn’t listen to me at all.
We’re joined today by someone we haven’t had on the podcast before, Dr. Kurt Sandholtz.
Kurt is a professor at BYU’s Marriott School of Business. He earned his master’s degree in organizational behavior from BYU, spent 15 years as a management consultant, and then earned his PhD in management science from Stanford University.
A big part of Kurt’s work is helping people recognize and develop their potential as leaders, which makes him a perfect addition to our conversation today.
Kurt, welcome to the podcast.
Kurt Sandholtz:
Thank you. I’m delighted to join the conversation.
BreAnne:
Joe, before we get into the research—which I know is your favorite part—I want to start with something really simple.
Do you think most leaders know whether they’re actually a good listener?
Joe Folkman:
I think we fool ourselves. If they ask their significant others or spouses, I think they could get a read on it.
I’m terrible.
BreAnne:
I think part of what makes listening really interesting is that we’ve all been taught certain behaviors that communicate, I’m listening.
Don’t interrupt—which I’m not always good at. Look directly at the person. Nod. Repeat back what they said.
But some of your research suggests that we’ve actually defined good listening too narrowly. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Joe:
It’s interesting. When Jack and I were together—and Jack just passed away in July, and we miss him terribly—we wrote an article for Harvard Business Review.
We were searching for an analogy or metaphor for listening. The common metaphor for listening is a sponge, right?
Be the sponge. Soak it all in.
Jack said, “That’s the wrong metaphor.”
He said a much better metaphor would be a trampoline.
The sponge really isn’t very good. When people are just saying, “Okay. Yeah. Say more,” that’s not really what great listening looks like.
The trampoline is someone who really asks you questions, responds to you, and reacts to what you say. That stimulates the conversation.
When you think about great listeners, they’re trampolines. They’re not sponges.
BreAnne:
That really resonated with a lot of people. The article took off because I think people felt that way.
You want someone who is engaged. They may be paying attention, but maybe they’re thinking about something else.
Kurt, what are the subtle signs that tell an employee, My leader hears the words I’m saying, but they’re not actually listening to me?
Kurt:
I love the trampoline metaphor.
When I first read that article, another metaphor came to mind. I thought of playing tennis or pickleball.
Imagine you’re playing pickleball and the person hits you the ball. You catch the ball and say, “Great shot.” They hit it again, and you catch it and say, “Wow, that was a really good one.”
That’s not fun. No one is going to enjoy that game.
They want you to return the ball and actually have a two-way game going.
One of the ways we demonstrate that we’re actually listening is by being in the game. Researchers call this conversational uptake.
There are three ways you can demonstrate it.
Number one, refer back to things people have said earlier in the conversation and refer to them accurately.
Number two, ask specific questions—not generic questions, but questions that demonstrate, “I really heard your point, and now I’m pushing you on it.”
And number three, show appreciation. Express positive uptake: “Wow, that’s a great idea. Let me build on that.”
Then it becomes a two-way game, with give and take, and people can tell that we’re engaged.
BreAnne:
Do you think genuine listening is partly about being willing to be influenced by someone else?
If I walk into a conversation and I’ve already decided what happened, what I think, and what I’m going to do, is that actually listening? Or am I politely waiting for you to stop talking?
Kurt, what do you think?
Kurt:
I want to defend managers a little bit on this one because it’s a tricky position.
The research shows that regardless of your skills and how you behave during the conversation, if you disagree with the speaker, they’re more likely to rate you as a bad listener.
It’s tricky for a manager to disagree while still communicating to the other person, “I really heard you, and I appreciate you.”
Joe:
“I really heard you, but you’re wrong.”
Kurt:
Well, sometimes they are wrong!
I think one of the keys—and this is becoming part of the research people are doing on communication—is follow-up.
If the person can see that you changed your behavior, changed a policy, or did something in response to what they said, then they know you really listened.
In the moment, they often can’t tell.
One study I read showed that our minds wander about 25% of the time during conversations. All of us are guilty of not listening at least part of the time.
The other interesting finding was that the people we’re talking to often can’t tell. We’ve become so good at the techniques you described that we can fake it.
A lot of the proof of listening actually comes after the conversation.
Does anything actually change?
BreAnne:
There’s something in your research, Joe, that seems connected to what Kurt is talking about.
One behavior associated with becoming a better listener is seeking information that contradicts your current thinking.
That’s a very different mindset from, I’m going to listen so I can formulate my response.
Joe:
Yes. It’s this idea of really having curiosity and wanting to dig in and understand what the other person is saying.
It’s wonderful when people genuinely want to understand you. It’s not a debate. The person is curious.
When you say something, they respond, “Help me understand why you believe that.”
They’re not even challenging you. They’re just curious.
Giving someone the opportunity to explain themselves builds that person’s self-esteem.
BreAnne:
Curiosity takes a lot of energy because you have to really be there and be engaged.
It sounds easy to be curious until somebody says something you strongly disagree with.
Kurt, what happens psychologically when we hear something that contradicts what we already believe? More importantly, what can a leader do in that moment to stay curious?
Kurt:
We’ve evolved to have this fight-or-flight response.
We either dig in our heels, double down on our point, and try to prove the other person wrong—or we change the topic. We run away from it: I don’t want to engage with that. Let’s talk about something else.
You see this in political debates all the time.
The ability to listen with a little objectivity and ask, Why is this person seeing it that way? What are they seeing that I’m not seeing? is a really important skill.
BreAnne:
You’re with people for a long time when you work together—40 hours a week, maybe more.
I imagine that if you’re an employee and you know that whenever you bring up something your boss disagrees with, they’re going to come at you, eventually you might stop talking about it. You stop bringing things up.
So having that curiosity is incredibly important for leaders.
There’s another finding from the research that I think might make some senior leaders a little uncomfortable.
Joe, you found that listening appears to decline as people move higher in organizations. Tell us what you found.
Kurt:
Guilty as charged.
Joe:
We looked at data from 4,213 leaders who received 360-degree feedback on their listening effectiveness.
Then we looked at their organizational level.
Individual contributors were at the 59th percentile.
Supervisors were at the 56th percentile.
Middle managers were at the 49th percentile.
Senior leaders were at the 42nd percentile.
And top managers were at the 39th percentile.
Guess who the worst listeners are?
Top management.
BreAnne:
That’s exactly what I want to talk about.
Kurt, why might greater experience, expertise, and authority actually make someone less inclined to listen?
Kurt:
I have two ways of thinking about this, and they both give managers a little bit of grace.
First, as you move up in an organization, the number of issues and problems you’re dealing with increases in both volume and complexity.
Upper-level managers are simply more distracted. They have more on their plates. They can easily be perceived as not paying attention because they have dozens of other things calling for their attention.
Second—and this is a critique of selection systems in organizations—leaders are often selected for what I like to call their ability to demonstrate the gift of certainty.
They have to make decisions with incomplete data and move forward.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing.
But in a conversation, it can translate into, I’ve already got to make a decision here. I’ve made up my mind. Therefore, I’m not really listening to what you’re saying or processing it. I need to make a decision and move forward.
I think those could be two reasons we see this inverse correlation between perceived listening skill and level in the organization.
BreAnne:
I want to push that a step further because I think there’s another trap leaders fall into.
Organizations constantly tell leaders, Ask for feedback. Ask your people what they think.
So they do.
“How is the team doing?”
“What would you change?”
“What did you think about this decision?”
But then nothing happens.
Kurt, what happens when a leader repeatedly asks for input but employees rarely see that input affect anything?
Kurt:
One behavior we all hate is hypocrisy.
When you ask for feedback and then nothing happens, you’re essentially being a hypocrite.
I learned this from Joe years ago when we were working with managers and coaching them on their feedback.
When leaders invite employees to tell them something and then don’t act on it, employees have to conclude, Well, they didn’t really hear what I was saying.
The next time you give those employees an opportunity to provide feedback, guess what they’re going to do?
They’re going to crank up the volume.
Your feedback actually becomes more negative because if employees perceive that you’re not listening, they think, I guess I need to shout to get their attention.
BreAnne:
There’s one misconception I want to make sure we address before we finish this conversation.
Listening to someone doesn’t mean agreeing with them.
This is actually where listening gets harder. It’s pretty easy to listen carefully when someone is telling us something we already believe.
But Kurt, how should a leader listen when they genuinely disagree with what’s being said?
Can an employee walk out of the room thinking, My boss completely disagreed with me, but I still felt heard?
Kurt:
I think it’s possible, but it’s not easy.
I think it’s a characteristic that differentiates the best leaders: the ability to separate the person from the issue.
They listen to the issue and summarize or reflect it back accurately so the person knows they heard what was said. Then they state their different opinion in a way that shows respect for the person and has evidence behind it.
The employee can walk out of that conversation thinking, My manager didn’t agree with me, but she sure heard what I was saying—and she made a pretty good case for her argument.
Employees don’t expect leaders to cave to every idea and agree with everything. That would show a lack of integrity.
Over time, if you can demonstrate, I don’t always agree, but I always appreciate what you tell me. And sometimes I take it in and change my point of view, that becomes evident in the decisions you make, the policies you enact, and the way you treat people.
Those things are crucial.
Joe:
What a wonderful trait as a leader.
Even if they didn’t agree with me, they listened and understood my point of view.
BreAnne:
Joe, I think this connects with something interesting in your research around feedback.
Asking for feedback is almost the ultimate listening test because now you’ve deliberately asked someone to tell you how your behavior affects them—and then you have to sit there and hear the answer.
Joe:
The data is very clear that people who have a habit of asking for feedback get better every year. They improve every year.
There’s a clear correlation there.
I think the humility of asking is part of what helps you. It’s being willing to say, I know I’m not perfect, and I could be better.
BreAnne:
I want to finish by making this extremely practical.
There’s probably somebody listening right now thinking, Okay, I do this. I nod. I ask questions. I let the person finish. But if I’m being truthful, I’ve already decided what I think.
Kurt, give that leader one thing to try in their very next conversation.
What’s one practice that can move them from performative listening to genuine listening?
Kurt:
To me, it comes back to what we mentioned earlier: conversational uptake.
Verbally indicate to the person that you’re listening.
I can restate what you said. I can push it further by asking specific questions. And I can show appreciation for you.
Those are crucial in-the-moment skills.
Ironically, sometimes being a better listener means being a better talker. You have to speak with accuracy and understanding to demonstrate that you’re a good listener.
BreAnne:
I’m going to add a surprise question for both of you.
In our day and age, with social media, AI, and so much information flying around, it’s hard to capture and hold attention.
Do you think this is becoming a bigger problem for leaders and employees?
Joe:
The data is interesting. When they look at students who come into class and put a cell phone down by their desk, their attention span and ability to digest information go down.
Just having the phone sitting there affects their ability to do well in the class.
I think our attention spans have come down.
That being said, the experience of having somebody truly listen to you is memorable. It can affect people throughout their lives.
Kurt, what would you say?
Kurt:
I agree with that. However, the tendency to get distracted during conversations isn’t unique to our technological age.
George Bernard Shaw said that the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.
In other words, we think we’re communicating, but we’re not. Current research bears this out.
There was a study where researchers could electronically manipulate how much information a listener received from a speaker during a Zoom conversation.
They could make up to 75% of the information garbled, meaning the listener heard only about 25% of the words the speaker was saying.
Yet when researchers measured how well the speaker thought the other person was listening, the speakers thought they were doing great.
We’re so good at faking it that even when we’re hearing only part of what someone says, the illusion of communication can still be there.
We have more technology distracting us today, but distraction itself has always been an issue.
BreAnne:
Kurt, what’s your final thought on what we can do to be better listeners this week?
Kurt:
I would say: Take action after the conversation.
Even if that action is as simple as sending an email saying, “I’m really glad you came to talk to me. Here’s what I heard from what you said.”
Something as simple as that gives the person a tangible, post-conversation indicator that says, This person heard me.
BreAnne:
That’s great.
My takeaway from this conversation is that listening isn’t always demonstrated by how quiet you can be while the other person talks.
Kurt, thank you so much for joining us for your first episode. We look forward to having you back on many more episodes of 90th Percentile Leadership. We appreciate your perspective.
Kurt:
My pleasure, BreAnne. I hope you felt listened to.
BreAnne:
I did!
And Joe, thank you, as always, for the research.
Joe:
It’s been great. Thanks.
BreAnne:
If you’d like to learn more about the research behind today’s conversation, you can find more of Joe’s work on listening, trust, and leadership at Zenger Folkman.
And we have a special resource for listeners of this episode. Joe Folkman has created a free Listening Self-Assessmentto help you better understand your own listening effectiveness.
Once again, I’m BreAnne Okoren, and you’ve been listening to 90th Percentile Leadership: Insights. Backed by Data.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and share this episode with your colleagues and friends. We’re glad you listened, and we hope you’ll join us again next week.
